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 LATEST TOPICS |  FORUMS » TECH NEWS » REMEMBER THAT ARE BROTHER/SISTERS AT WIK...
Subject: RE: Remember that are brother/sisters at Wiki are shutting down...
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Xaios Jan 18, 2012 12:27 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (Dante_ Xaiver™ @ Jan 18 2012, 12:21 PM)

Its funny you say you are musician who loves to make music and expects to make money from it , when infact there are many musicians who support people sharing their music. these people make music out of the love for the art and do not see compensation s a driving factor . In order order to be compensated for your work make sure its something people will enjoy and then see what people are willing to give.

the more people who share a musicians work , the greater the chance the musician will profit from it . Many big names have come out in support of people who share their works and are happy their product gets known .


And I was quite clear on saying that, if those people want to give away their music, that's their right. Heck, if I ever do get around to recording an album, I probably WILL make it available for free, because I recognize the marketing appeal of doing so. However, that's not a decision that someone else should be capable of making for me. If I don't want to, I bloody well shouldn't have to. It's my choice.

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Dead Things Jan 18, 2012 12:40 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (Xaios @ Jan 18 2012, 12:27 PM)

If I don't want to, I bloody well shouldn't have to. It's my choice.

That's well stated.

I might offer some input - I have a cousin and a friend who have encountered some success in music (Dragonette and Bedouin Soundclash, respectively). They each say that file sharing of self-released EP's helped them earn larger crowds when their income came almost entirely from gigging. Growing crowds meant more money per gig, and growing fan bases eventually led to record deals in both cases (although, I appreciate these are both fairly exceptional cases and record deals are no readily forthcoming generally).

On the other hand, my cousin is close friends with Tyler Stewart from BNL, and he sings a much different tune regarding file sharing. It seems that there's a bit of a divide: if, as a musician, your income is primarily derived from gigging, then file sharing helps you. If, however, it is primarily derived from record sales, then it hurts you. These are general statements, to be sure.

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Lord Emperor Jan 18, 2012 12:47 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (Xaios @ Jan 18 2012, 12:14 PM)

Xaios said:
The biggest problem with internet piracy is that people who engage in it believe that intellectual property has no intrinsic value. If you steal a chocolate bar, you've deprived the store owner of the ability to make a profit by selling that chocolate bar. Conversely, "file sharers" would have you believe that they haven't actually stolen anything by copying the metaphorical chocolate bar and giving it because the store owner retains ownership of the original. Alas, the end result is still the same because, by giving away the chocolate bar, they've deprived the actual owner of their ability to profit from its sale because, if it's available for free, who is going to pay for it?


This is not entirely accurate. The store still has the chocolate bar and can still sell it to someone else. You cannot quantify a lost sale because there is no guarantee that the pirate would choose to or can even afford to buy the chocolate bar at retail price.

Here's a really neat table comparing the most ******* movies to their gross profit:

http://*******freak.com/top-10-most-*******-movies-of-2011-111223/

And the top grossing films:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_in_film#Highest-grossing_films

Specifically Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows part 1 & 2 combined had a budget of $250, if we assume it was 50/50 then part 2 cost $125 million but earned $1.3 billion.

But piracy is cutting into the $1.175 billion profit...

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Dante_ Xaiver™ Jan 18, 2012 12:48 PM Reply | Bookmark
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You can also throw Avatar into that scenario as well

On one hand Avatar is the highest grossing film of all time but its also the most pirated film of all time as well. People downloaded it liked it then wanted to see it in theaters and some more then once. I downloaded it but then proceeded to pay to see it in 3D on 3 different occasions. Did my downloading of the film cost the studio profit? no because I had no intention of paying until I knew if I wanted to see it in theater

This message was modified by the poster at 01 18, 2012 01:09 PM

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Eric_G Jan 18, 2012 01:12 PM Reply | Bookmark
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So many SP games I would have never have bought if I couldn't of been able to try them first, oh my I can't even begin to make a list. It would be more efficient to list the games I didn't try and hated after I paid for them though.

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TKSS Jan 18, 2012 01:22 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (Dante_ Xaiver™ @ Jan 18 2012, 12:21 PM)

when infact there are many musicians who support people sharing their music.


Which is within their rights to do. How that equates to all music being a FFA download session has little, to no, logic.

Quote: (Dante_ Xaiver™ @ Jan 18 2012, 12:21 PM)

these people make music out of the love for the art and do not see compensation s a driving factor .


And how many of these bands either a: have made millions and are now distributing free or b: make the majority of their money on live gigs? Again, those who want to distribute freely have the right to do so, just as those who don't, have the right to expect recompense. Whether one expects recompense or not, does little to detract from the fact that they love their craft.

Quote: (Dante_ Xaiver™ @ Jan 18 2012, 12:21 PM)

Many big names have come out in support of people who share their works and are happy their product gets known .


You mean a handful. The big names that have/are distributing freely have made millions prior to adopting a free distribution system, and some of those are "pay what you want" systems or "pay for higher quality" systems. And again does not detract from any other musician that expects recompense for their creations.

Studio time is not cheap, unless you own your own. Media pressing is not cheap, unless you own the factory. Case/insert  design is not cheap, unless you're the artist/designer. And distribution is not cheap...period. The idyllic stance that musicians works just magically appear out of nowhere, with no cost, is laughable and only shows that those who actually hold this stance are delusional, self-entitled, children.

If it's a pro-profit product and you don't pay for it, it's theft, regardless of how to attempt to spin it.

The majority of people work for a living and expect recompense for their work. Musicians, artists and software developers are no different. They are people that do a job and expect recompense for their work. If anyone that works for a living went into their jobs tomorrow and their bosses informed them that a certain percentile of them would be getting paid, while the rest would have to work for nothing, there would be a major issue. The only thing that allows this to happen is the perceived anonymity of the internet.
The question has been asked before and the response is always the same. The majority of people who download movies, music and games have professed that they would never shoplift. Some of the most flawed logic I have ever heard. Because one can do it, with perceived anonymity, it's acceptable, yet an act where one is easily caught, due to security cameras and security devices, it isn't. The only difference is the greater percentile chance of getting caught.

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Lord Emperor Jan 18, 2012 02:18 PM Reply | Bookmark
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This image was deleted by TKSS @01/18/2012

Quote: (TKSS @ Jan 18 2012, 01:22 PM)

If it's a pro-profit product and you don't pay for it, it's theft, regardless of how to attempt to spin it.


Nope!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theft

the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.

Quote: (TKSS @ Jan 18 2012, 01:22 PM)

The majority of people work for a living and expect recompense for their work. Musicians, artists and software developers are no different. They are people that do a job and expect recompense for their work. If anyone that works for a living went into their jobs tomorrow and their bosses informed them that a certain percentile of them would be getting paid, while the rest would have to work for nothing, there would be a major issue. The only thing that allows this to happen is the perceived anonymity of the internet.


Please demonstrate the company or individual who has failed to profit on a product due to entirely to piracy. Not profit less. Not due to the product being ****ty to begin with. Demonstrate a quality product which has a experienced a net loss due to piracy.

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Analbumcover Jan 18, 2012 02:30 PM Reply | Bookmark
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HAHA. All the "capitalists" just like to take intellectual property so long as it's not their own.

"The Handy Guide to Piracy" picture is basically trying to argue the difference between theft/piracy and plagiarism. Basically they are saying I'm not stealing physical property only the effort that person put into making intellectual property.

I just don't know how capitalists live their lives with such contradictions. I guess it's just like how Republicans dismiss evolution and Social Darwinism yet believe in capitalism and that the poor should die and not be helped and that only the rich should have the resources to reproduce.

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TKSS Jan 18, 2012 02:59 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Since the whole thread originated due to Wiki, let's use them shall we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft

"In common usage, theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent. The word is also used as an informal shorthand term for some crimes against property, such as burglary, embezzlement, larceny, looting, robbery, shoplifting and fraud."

You can argue semantics until you're blue in the face, it doesn't change the facts. Just like the inane inforgraphic changes nothing. It's nothing more than flawed morals and spin doctor tactics.

But let's turn this around for once, since it's always the thieves that want things explained to them for some asinine reason.

What gives you the right to not have to pay for something that others do? What makes you so "special", other than a self-entitled attitude? Why do the "file sharers" always whine the loudest when companies have to implement a new type of DRM (even though DRM hurts the legitimate user)? If it's ok, due to large profits, to not pay for music, software and films, why is it not ok to head into a Walmart or any other big box store and just start grabbing things off the shelves?

Try and answer the above honestly and without the stereotypical spin doctor styled answers.

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Dante_ Xaiver™ Jan 18, 2012 03:03 PM Reply | Bookmark
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This image was deleted by TKSS @01/18/2012

An Infographic of sorts

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TKSS Jan 18, 2012 03:10 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (Dante_ Xaiver™ @ Jan 18 2012, 03:03 PM)

An Spindoctorgraphic of sorts


Fixed. Buh bye spindoctoring!

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Somebody69 Jan 18, 2012 03:11 PM Reply | Bookmark
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lolwat, how do you delete  images?

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Dante_ Xaiver™ Jan 18, 2012 03:12 PM Reply | Bookmark
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This image was deleted by TKSS @01/18/2012

And Again

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Dante_ Xaiver™ Jan 18, 2012 03:16 PM Reply | Bookmark
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edit

This message was modified by the poster at 01 18, 2012 03:33 PM

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Dante_ Xaiver™ Jan 18, 2012 03:17 PM Reply | Bookmark
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This image was deleted by TKSS @01/18/2012

Looks like a Nazis is deleting my pics so here it is again

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TKSS Jan 18, 2012 03:17 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (Somebody69 @ Jan 18 2012, 03:11 PM)

how do you delete  images?


You need a 2k+ rating I believe. NCIX's way of having the community police itself. The same with being able to mod posts, which I believe is 5k+ rating. It's a flawed system.

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TKSS Jan 18, 2012 03:19 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (Dante_ Xaiver™ @ Jan 18 2012, 03:17 PM)

Looks like a Nazis is deleting my pics so here it is again


Deleting a picture has nothing to do with antisemitism.

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Dante_ Xaiver™ Jan 18, 2012 03:20 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Since My pics keep getting deleted , this is a pic of why its much easier and less of a headache to just download a movie

http://underdesign.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/gxzev.jpg?w=700&h=721

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Lord Emperor Jan 18, 2012 03:23 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (TKSS @ Jan 18 2012, 03:19 PM)

TKSS said:

Deleting a picture has nothing to do with antisemitism.


Nazism has plenty of non-racial ideology including censorship and propaganda.

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Somebody69 Jan 18, 2012 03:25 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (Lord Emperor @ Jan 18 2012, 03:23 PM)

Lord Emperor said:
Quote: (TKSS s Jan 18 2012, 03:19 PM)

TKSS said:

Deleting a picture has nothing to do with antisemitism.


Nazism has plenty of non-racial ideology including censorship and propaganda.


And no smoking!

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TKSS Jan 18, 2012 03:30 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Yest still doesn't answer any of the following nor is it any less spindoctoring than any political party uses to make a flawed stance seem more palatable.

What gives you the right to not have to pay for something that others do? What makes you so "special", other than a self-entitled attitude? Why do the "file sharers" always whine the loudest when companies have to implement a new type of DRM (even though DRM hurts the legitimate user)? If it's ok, due to large profits, to not pay for music, software and films, why is it not ok to head into a Walmart or any other big box store and just start grabbing things off the shelves?

Try and answer the above honestly and without the stereotypical spin doctor styled answers.

I've asked DanteX, and others, the same question numerous times, in numerous threads, yet the questions remain ignored. I already know why, because intent exposes them for what they are. Thieves.

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TKSS Jan 18, 2012 03:31 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (Lord Emperor @ Jan 18 2012, 03:23 PM)

propaganda.


Ooooh just like the infographics? Good thing they're gone then, right?

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Lord Emperor Jan 18, 2012 03:32 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (TKSS @ Jan 18 2012, 03:31 PM)

TKSS said:
Ooooh just like the infographics? Good thing they're gone then, right?


Universal censorship is much better than universal freedom of expression, right?

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Dante_ Xaiver™ Jan 18, 2012 03:33 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (TKSS @ Jan 18 2012, 03:30 PM)

TKSS said:
Yest still doesn't answer any of the following nor is it any less spindoctoring than any political party uses to make a flawed stance seem more palatable.

What gives you the right to not have to pay for something that others do? What makes you so "special", other than a self-entitled attitude? Why do the "file sharers" always whine the loudest when companies have to implement a new type of DRM (even though DRM hurts the legitimate user)? If it's ok, due to large profits, to not pay for music, software and films, why is it not ok to head into a Walmart or any other big box store and just start grabbing things off the shelves?

Try and answer the above honestly and without the stereotypical spin doctor styled answers.

I've asked DanteX, and others, the same question numerous times, in numerous threads, yet the questions remain ignored. I already know why, because intent exposes them for what they are. Thieves.


Why should that question be answered? The question relating to "have you any proof Piracy causes lost jobs or hardship in Hollywood" never gets answered either.

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Eagle1337 Jan 18, 2012 03:34 PM Reply | Bookmark
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tkss grow up just because you don't like the image doesn't mean it should be deleted.. That image is pretty true. I remember getting movies i owned from the river simply because it removed the stupid unwatchable trailers, the stupid copyright info garbage, now to those saying why didn't i rip it and edit it out myself? I don't have a dvd drive in my computer.

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TKSS Jan 18, 2012 03:42 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (Dante_ Xaiver™ @ Jan 18 2012, 03:33 PM)

Why should that question be answered? The question relating to "have you any proof Piracy causes lost jobs or hardship in Hollywood" never gets answered either.


For the same reasons you constantly demand answers. If there were no needs for DRM it wouldn't be there.

You won't answer them due to the exact reasons stated. It will show intent. You don't even need to answer due to your history on the subject and hosting servers in countries with lax laws. The intent is to circumvent the law(s) in the country you reside. If it's not morally and legally wrong you'd be hosting your servers here. If you really wanted to stand up for your perceived rights you'd stand up to "the man". You don't, because you don't want to deal with the fines or jail time.

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Lord Emperor Jan 18, 2012 03:44 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (TKSS @ Jan 18 2012, 03:30 PM)

TKSS said:
Yest still doesn't answer any of the following nor is it any less spindoctoring than any political party uses to make a flawed stance seem more palatable.

What gives you the right to not have to pay for something that others do? What makes you so "special", other than a self-entitled attitude? Why do the "file sharers" always whine the loudest when companies have to implement a new type of DRM (even though DRM hurts the legitimate user)? If it's ok, due to large profits, to not pay for music, software and films, why is it not ok to head into a Walmart or any other big box store and just start grabbing things off the shelves?

Try and answer the above honestly and without the stereotypical spin doctor styled answers.

I've asked DanteX, and others, the same question numerous times, in numerous threads, yet the questions remain ignored. I already know why, because intent exposes them for what they are. Thieves.


You keep using that word "theft", I do not think you understand what it meams.

For one party to steal, another part must experience tangible loss. That means that the victim has less than they started with. Downloading a movie, game or music track does not cause the artist tangible loss. Shoplifting causes the store tangible loss. This has nothing to do with profits; ******** is one of the wealthiest organisations in the world.

People have been "not paying for things" forever! Every time you build something for your own use, you're "not paying" for something else. Doesn't matter if it's a music CD, wooden table computer or house. Here's an enterprising fellow who built his own Lamborghini:

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2008/10/man-hand-builds-lamborghini-countach-in.html

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Dante_ Xaiver™ Jan 18, 2012 03:46 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Wait until 3D printers start becoming Affordable then people will be creating their own items.

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TKSS Jan 18, 2012 03:48 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (Eagle1337 @ Jan 18 2012, 03:34 PM)

tkss grow up just because you don't like the image doesn't mean it should be deleted


I'll guarantee that promoting "file sharing" is against the TOS, especially since NCIX sells items that tend to get "shared". Since NCIX does nothing about it and allows the community to police itself, with no set standard, it's remains perceptive regarding what's acceptable and what isn't.

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Eagle1337 Jan 18, 2012 03:49 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Quote: (Lord Emperor g Jan 18 2012, 03:44 PM)


You keep using that word "theft", I do not think you understand what it meams.

For one party to steal, another part must experience tangible loss. That means that the victim has less than they started with. Downloading a movie, game or music track does not cause the artist tangible loss. Shoplifting causes the store tangible loss. This has nothing to do with profits

Exactly, Piracy has never been theft, It's a whole different thing; copyright infringement.

edit: TKSS the image doesn't even promote piracy. It's more of a get rid of all the stupid garbage because it only hinders, and vote with your wallet.

This message was modified by the poster at 01 18, 2012 03:50 PM

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