Advanced Search | Customer Care | NCIXUS Forums |
Newsletters | Contact Us | Your Account | VIEW CART  
 Welcome 
 Hot Deals 
 NCIX PC 
 Forums 
  CANADA |  USA
Hot Topics  |  Latest Postings  |  View Unreplied  |  Forum Bookmarks
Search
Hot Searches:
 
 LATEST TOPICS |  FORUMS » GENERAL DISCUSSIONS » WHY DO PEOPLE EVEN BUY "GREEN" HDDS?...
Subject: Why do people even buy "Green" HDDs?
Share this:  
PREV   |   NEXT   1 2 3  
Author Date Posted Tools
Hyperlight May 22, 2011 03:32 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

This post is sort of a rant against the new trends of "green" HDDs. I refer to any drive thats <7200RPM and marketed as such. It will be a bit lengthy.

1) Well they are cheap? Well guess what, you get what you pay for. Green reliability is utter garbage, my friend bought 12 WD Greens a year or 2 ago and out of the lot 4 are dead........ so basically they can be counted on to die. Out of all my contacts that have bought a green type drive they have ALL had at least 1 fail. OUCH. So basically you have to add in that $1k data recovery fee when one dies.......not so cheap now huh. I have never had such poor failure rates on 7200RPM series drives.

2) Well they are energy efficient. Ok so they say 1/2 the power use of a regular HDD. Ok well lets give em the 15w difference....... Ya 15W, really? So lets say you have 8, 120w energy savings, that works out to be an insignificant portion of savings IMO for the insane risk of data failure, more on that in a sec. 120W works out to around $9 a month in savings assuming 10c per KWh. Sure it looks good on paper but do people actually care about a $9 difference?

3) They are quiet and run cool. Ok I will give you that one, however with fans in a computer case I can barely hear my HDDs the noise difference between a black and a green in a good insulated case is not noticeable to me. That said I think quite computing should die, bring in the 2Us with 5K RPM deltas.

4) They are good for storage. Ok when someone says "storage" to me RAID comes to mind. Building a storage solution without it is crazy. Guess what greens are TERRIBLE in RAID arrays.
A) Due to their aggressive power saving nature they spin down which leads to the controller dropping them, not good.
B) Because they are slower, if anything remotely random I/O hits the drive in that array and it takes too long to do its thing, ya again controller drops it from the array. I know enterprise green types have TLER and thats fine. But again look at the cost. Might as well get a WD black for that steep price hike.
C) They seem to be fine in RAID1, but ya....... RAID1 is hardly scalable and you soon find yourself in the position where getting 8 2TB blacks is actually more cost effective.

Ok, so what are we left with? Well run it in stand alone? Even that doesn't work. I tried running a simple river file to my green 2TB on a P5Q-Pro, 5mins later dropped from the OS took a restart to bring it back. I don't mind slow but dropping under load????? Really?

So please someone tell me why they buy greens. They cant be used in stand alone due to performance and death. They cant be used in RAID arrays to mitigate the above due to dropping. AND they cant be relied on to actually work.

Topic URL: http://forums.ncix.com/forums/topic.php?id=2360460

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Wall May 22, 2011 03:45 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

People like to buy "green" products, makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I do have a single WD 1 TB green, that has to be going on 2+ years old now and still runs fine, never had any issues with it. Has only ever been used as redundant storage or as a swap drive though. Phasing it out though as I got a wicked deal from a friend on a 2 TB Black refurb drive.

I do agree with the majority of your arguments though, specially the quiet part. If you want a quiet drive, buy an SSD, then use networked storage in a closet somewhere.

Some people just look at cost too, the greens can be pretty tempting when on sale.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
mattrickulater May 22, 2011 05:06 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

I'm going to "refute" your points because I believe just because you don't see the value in something doesn't mean there isn't value in it at all. It's analogous to saying "I hate rap music, ergo no one should produce that genre of music." It sounds short-sighted and a tad foolish. So here goes.

1) Four drives out of twelve is not what you'd call a robust sample size. Also, if he purchased them all from one lot, there could be inherent problems with that lot causing the drives to fail. I have gone through about a dozen WD Caviar Greens, and yes, one did fail, and WD replaced it with a brand new drive of larger capacity. The replacement seems tangential, but it is still relevant due to the fact that you can discount the downside risk to the Caviar Green drives as WD has a good warranty/RMA reputation.

Also, Why add the cost of $1,000 to the drive? When my Green failed, I suffered zero downtime because I backup my data properly. I'll admit, you still have to buy two drives where one would suffice, but that should be standard practice. Doubling the cost of a drive does make it more expensive, but it's not like the Caviar Black series never ever fails and that you don't have to add extra costs (ideally, double) to account for the failure rate, making them even more expensive as well.

2. As above, if the risk of data failure is so high, why not put a proper backup solution in place as opposed to data recovery? Also, are you that confident that you're not running that backup solution with better drives? That makes little sense to me. If you have data you can't afford to use, it doesn't matter if it's on a Green or Black drive because it should be on three drives in three separate locations.

What's the alternative to $9? Are you that wealthy that you frivolously throw out $108 a year? For nothing? I wish I could afford to burn $108 a year. Also, it's not like you're running those drives for a month. For me, the savings are $9 a month forever. That's a lot of money. And since I run a proper backup solution, I'm getting those savings for free. If I were running Blacks instead of Greens, my data would be as secure and I would have no monthly savings.

3. I don't really care about cool and quiet, plus you cede the point.

4. Why does storage = RAID? To me, enterprise = RAID and storage = something grandma and grandpa can throw their pictures of their grandkids on. How many people do you think who buy Green drives use them in a RAID? If you're spending the cash on a hardware RAID card, why in the world would you skimp on the drives? That makes no sense to me.

As for software RAID, I think it's a useless feature. I think it's there as something that motherboard manufacturers can sell to the masses who think their data is protected by a magical aura and that if they run RAID then world peace is around the corner (now who's ranting?).

The way I use my Greens are in stand alone. I've never had them drop  from the OS in four years or so (except for the bum drive, but that's unrelated to this point). I'm not running databases or anything too frequent, although I'd argue WHS thrashed my drives more than I'd like. Now I'm running WHS 2011. I think I have about 12 TB of total space, so roughly 6 TB usable. I sit all my music, photos, videos, et cetera on my WHS and I've never had a problem (again, a serious problem, aside from that one drive dying which was no sweat off my back). I can stream what I want from my server, I can access it at any time. My copy speeds are usually 50 MB/s at the slowest. I don't need a faster solution, I don't need a more expensive solution. There's no need or want that I have that could be satisfied by using Blacks or better drives in my situation.

Just because you use product x over product y, even if product x is better in every single way, doesn't mean that product y doesn't solve someone's problems completely. It might be that a BMW is a better car than a Toyota in every respect, but it'll never mean that a Toyota doesn't suit someone perfectly. It's not the product that you have to analyze, it's the person's preference that makes all the difference in the world.

This message was modified by the poster at 05 22, 2011 05:10 AM

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Tips: 51 Points tipped from 2 members
Westcoast May 22, 2011 05:09 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

If there is any merit to this chart. seems 2tb drives have twice as high failure rates ...

http://forums.storagereview.com/index.php/topic/29329-ssd-failure-rates-compared-to-hard-drives/

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Bamp™ May 22, 2011 05:24 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

Quote: (Westcoast @ May 22 2011, 05:09 AM)

Hitachi is logically the less well placed, what with two separate lines! What about the 2 TB version?

- 9.71%: WD Caviar Black WD2001FASS
- 6.87% Hitachi Deskstar 7K2000
- 4.83%: WD Caviar Green WD20EARS
- 4.35% Seagate Barracuda LP
- 4.17%: Samsung EcoGreen F3
- 2.90%: WD Caviar Green WD20EADS


damn, this kinda takes away from the whole rant.

you convinced me to go with a black edition for my next drive though still. just seems like i'll be going with the 640's when these 250GB sp seagates die , if that ever happens.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Rison May 22, 2011 07:41 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

Most purchases are based on price, and the WD greens are cheap.. $70 for 2TB currently.
I know you're giving more of a rant than a question.. but they are extremely popular due to their price/GB comparison. I won't sell or recommend the crap though.

I personally have a lot of EADS drives, which work quite well - and I haven't had a problem with the 14 that I have in my WHS.. The EARS drives however, I would get rid of ASAP if I were backing data up on it.
Current WHS/SBS 11 rollouts have been the WD AV-GP 2TB drives (EURS).. which have worked well for me, and not much more expensive than the green drives. Time will tell if the drives are better though.

I don't typically like hard drive failure rate % numbers.. because there are too many variables from drive to drive. One person will have them cooking away in an old case with no fans - and another will have them in proper bays with 120mm fans directly on them. I never cook my drives, so failure rates due to stupid installers/users can't be determined. (Like for instance all my 20+ Seagate .12's that have never failed me cause they have fans on them)

Anywho, there is no answer to the green drive 'problem' so long as stupid local computer shops recommend them to home / small business users and include them in quotes. Yes, they will beat my SBS hardware quotes.. but no, I won't sell an inferior product if I have to support it. I just don't understand some people.
(yes, if they want a real SBS I use WD RE4's.. different story there though)
I guess computer shops make more money having to fix the broken drives over and over, and bill the crap out of the customer again and again. I don't have time for that sort of nonsense.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
©§ Mordith §® May 22, 2011 08:22 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

I must be SUPER lucky I guess. Never had one drive EVER die on me or any of my customers in 10 years......not kidding. (Most ALL Seagates in that 10 years)


I really do think sometimes it's PEBKAC though as seriously I can't be THAT lucky, can I?

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
©§ Mordith §® May 22, 2011 08:25 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

sorry I lied, I did have 1 of 2 WD 36GB Raptors go after like 6 years......

This message was modified by the poster at 05 22, 2011 08:49 AM

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Adam_G May 22, 2011 09:43 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

It seems like this is a good place to ask:

How well would a 3x 2TB RAID5 setup on a Win7 H67-chipset machine using Intel RST for the RAID work? Does this classify as a 'software RAID' solution?

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Doug_the_Slug May 22, 2011 09:55 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

Quote: (Adam_G @ May 22 2011, 09:43 AM)

H67-chipset machine using Intel RST for the RAID work?

99% of onboard solutions are software raid. I say 99% because there's a chance that one of them out there happens to be hardware, but I've never seen one.

Basically, if the CPU gets involved with the processing of RAID parity or figuring out if an error occurred, it's software raid.
If the controller has it's own processor to do RAID calculations and recovery, then it's hardware raid.
Onboard solutions never have their own processor and use the main CPU from the computer to do their processing and error recovery.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Lance W May 22, 2011 10:38 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

1. Mine are all fine.

2. Yes, the power difference is quite small. It should only be a consideration if you're employing a lot of them.

3. If you can't differentiate the noise level between a Black and a Green it doesn't mean your case is well insulated. It means you have other components drowning them out and/or your noise tolerance is high (you have Deltas for crying out loud!). I run a quiet system that is inaudible, that is to say I can't tell if it's on or off without looking at the power LED except during the dead of night when there is almost no ambient noise. It's on the floor, 3 feet to my right and I cannot stand the sound of any hard-mounted 7200RPM in it. Caviar Greens are godsends to me.

According to SPCR, the 2TB Black measures about 16/22 dBA while the Green is about 13/13.5 dBA (idle/seeking). I just checked with a decibel calculator and apparently you need two Greens to match the idle output of one Black, and eight Greens to match one Black when seeking.

4a. They don't spin down (or least they shouldn't unless your power management settings are set to power them down), their heads park after ~8 seconds like notebook drives. But yes, that means there's a little click and a slight delay when accessing data. If you don't like this, you can disable it with wdidle! Also, not all Green drives do this, only WD's AFAIK.

4b. Well they're cheap, of course their speed isn't great. If you pay half the price of a 7200RPM model, what do you expect?

4c. Again, I don't know why this is happening to you. I've used a WD Green in builds in the past as the O/S drive and they've never dropped out.

This message was modified by the poster at 05 22, 2011 10:44 AM

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
DJZ May 22, 2011 10:43 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

My WD green is super quiet and my WD black is loud enough that it has me worried... but it's probably normal :)

Hopefully...

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Entz May 22, 2011 10:59 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

Fail quotes time.

Quote: (Doug_the_Slug @ May 22 2011, 09:55 AM)


2) Well they are energy efficient. Ok so they say 1/2 the power use of a regular HDD. Ok well lets give em the 15w difference....... Ya 15W, really? So lets say you have 8, 120w energy savings, that works out to be an insignificant portion of savings IMO for the insane risk of data failure, more on that in a sec. 120W works out to around $9 a month in savings assuming 10c per KWh. Sure it looks good on paper but do people actually care about a $9 difference?


15w is a way optimistic figure imo. Most of the drives average 5w or less, especially if you have to disable the idle park timers to keep them from dying or getting drop ped from the OS and access them semi often.

My first WD green drive, would constantly drop  from the OS. I have one of the newer EARS ones and it has not been drop ped yet, then again I went through an jumped through the hoops with wdidle. But yeah forget about raid.

What I dont get is what the manufacturers are smoking with the pricing, especially WD and Seagate (Hitachi at least tries, the 7K3000 series are not that much more than the 5K3000's). There is no way a 7200RPM drive is worth 90$ more than a 5X000 RPM green drive (double). People often look at cost and will always go with the cheaper drives, without doing the research, and end up with a slow or unstable system. and since I am complaining why are RE4 GP drives $200 more than the caviars and $100 more than the blacks? If the base drive is so cheap, why? Should go RE4 (at $170)->Black (at $110)->RE4 Green (at $110) ->Green (at $80).


I have pretty much stopped buying green drives, way to much hassle for a minor savings in power. To much hassle.

Quote: (Doug_the_Slug @ May 22 2011, 09:55 AM)


H67-chipset machine using Intel RST for the RAID work?

Intel matrix raid on all motherboards is software based (same with AMDs). The arrays are created at the bios level, but have no effect on the drives until a drive is loaded. Very misleading. Something that is really obvious when you run say VMWare which doesn't have Matrix raid support, oh look there is all my drives, the bios did jack sh##

I don't think I would ever run software raid above RAID1, something about requiring potentially unstable software to rebuild the array (and only when the OS is running ) doesn't sit well with me.


Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Ben_J May 22, 2011 11:03 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

Funny you bring up the whole "green" HDD's.

I had to go down and service a client's server in one of the racks we operate at a datacenter in LA due to poor performance, hard drives dropping out of the RAID, or the OS would just freeze.

Turns out when his company built the server, in order to stay under the max amps allowed for what they pay a month they decided to use the WD Green's. Took an image of the server, swapped out the 4 1TB WD Greens and put in 4 new 1 TB WD RE3 Blacks, re-configured the RAID and deployed the image back onto the server. 4 Months and not a single issue since doing so, and much better performance and their still under the max allowed amps.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Saberon May 22, 2011 11:11 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

I've ordered roughly 10 WD blacks, 1 was DOA but no failures aside from that.

I also have 2 WD 2TB Greens without issues for storage.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
MrAtheist May 22, 2011 11:17 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

my first ever WD 2TB EADS crapped out on me in 6 months, while the notorious 7200.11 500gb that i got still runs like a champ. go figure.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Morgan_H May 22, 2011 11:32 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

These units run Cold & Silent in my NAS RAID Storage Banks.
Seagate Barracuda LP 2TB SATA2 32MB Cache 5900RPM 3.5IN

Cost per Terabyte was a Thought, not a deciding factor with the possible loss of my data. No Drive Failures or losses as yet. . . .

. . .. but just built a new Sandy Bridge sys in which the Main WD Black 1-T Failed, I had too RMA the drive while waiting I ordered an SSD replacing the WD Black

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
wlachan May 22, 2011 11:50 AM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

Quote: (Hyperlight @ May 22 2011, 03:32 AM)

2) Well they are energy efficient. Ok so they say 1/2 the power use of a regular HDD. Ok well lets give em the 15w difference....... Ya 15W, really? So lets say you have 8, 120w energy savings, that works out to be an insignificant portion of savings IMO for the insane risk of data failure, more on that in a sec. 120W works out to around $9 a month in savings assuming 10c per KWh. Sure it looks good on paper but do people actually care about a $9 difference?


I think when people think green, they should consider in a much grander scale. It's not always about money, though certainly the major reason most people care to bother, but how much consumption and emission would be affected worldwide.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Hyperlight May 22, 2011 12:01 PM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

mattrickulater
1) Yes I agree my sample size is hardly scientific, I just used that example to backup my point on failure. Now the reason I say $1000, is most people who buy greens do so due to cost issues. They aren't willing to backup their data properly so if and when it does go they are out a significant amount of time / money.

2) As for the redundancy aspect, with the blacks since you can RAID them you don't have to spend 2x more to get some data redundancy. I personally use a 8/1 ratio, 8 drives in RAID5. 16drives in RAID6 ect.

$108 a year is worth it for not having a troublesome storage solution. Dropping drives and unreliability are huge time wasters. My time is more valuable than that.

4) The reason I say RAID = Storage is because I was at least a degree of hardware redundancy in my storage. You say grandma and grandpa want to toss their photos on it. Ok, so are grandma and grandpa going to also invest time and effort in a proper backup solution?? Probably not. See about $1k cost for data recovery. You effectively are doing a manual RAID1 which I said wasn't cost effective.

I personally don't backup all my data, I find it exceedingly cost prohibitive. Sure I backup irreplaceable stuff offsite and sync it via VPNs. But for most of it RAID is a must. Its actually cheaper for me to spend the data recovery costs if in the extremely RARE case my RAID5s crap out.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Yoinkerman May 22, 2011 12:17 PM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

TLDR: Regular people buy them.

I would buy a green for putting movies and music and pictures on.

Why the heck would I need the performance of a better drive when all im doing is streaming a movie to my tv.

Plus. If a hard drive dies, people go "oh poo i guess all that stuff is gone" and don't get it recovered.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Hyperlight May 22, 2011 12:34 PM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

Quote: (Yoinkerman @ May 22 2011, 12:17 PM)

Plus. If a hard drive dies, people go "oh poo i guess all that stuff is gone" and don't get it recovered.


That NEVER happens. Usually this is the order of events:

1) Disbelief. Cant believe 1000s of my pics are gone
2) Rage. How could that HDD have died!
3) Regret. I should have backed up or printed some of those images.
4) (Part that affects me) Seek help. Run to nearest computer expert and get them to look at it and recover data.
5) Acceptance, after seeing the prohibitive data recovery costs they either are depressed at their never to be seen data or even more angry that the manufacturer does cover their data recovery costs.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Kramy May 22, 2011 01:08 PM Reply | Bookmark
Like (1) | Top | Bottom

Quote: (Hyperlight b May 22 2011, 03:32 AM)

2) Well they are energy efficient. Ok so they say 1/2 the power use of a regular HDD. Ok well lets give em the 15w difference....... Ya 15W, really? So lets say you have 8, 120w energy savings, that works out to be an insignificant portion of savings IMO for the insane risk of data failure, more on that in a sec. 120W works out to around $9 a month in savings assuming 10c per KWh. Sure it looks good on paper but do people actually care about a $9 difference?

The difference between a Green drive and regular drive (Ex: Seagate 7200.12) at idle is about 2-4 watts. The difference between a Green drive and WD Black at load is about 5-6 watts.

Green -> 2-3w idle, 4-5w load
Black -> 4-5w idle, 8-11w load.

I must admit, I too have had Green drives fail.

Quote: (Hyperlight b May 22 2011, 03:32 AM)

3) They are quiet and run cool. Ok I will give you that one, however with fans in a computer case I can barely hear my HDDs the noise difference between a black and a green in a good insulated case is not noticeable to me. That said I think quite computing should die, bring in the 2Us with 5K RPM deltas.

Quiet computing has a place - just not in high performance systems.


I don't actually consider Green drives to be power efficient. The lost performance means that many tasks take 50% longer, unless they're particularly suited to HDDs. (Like an HTPC or Video NAS would be) They're great for high capacity at a cheap price, but that's it.

Green drives save you on average about 2 watts - while the rest of your computer probably consumes 120+ watts at idle. If your drive is busy for only 1 second out of every minute, you have just consumed more power than you would with a Black, because your other components were held up and were still consuming power. Faster drives help the most power hungry components finish their tasks quicker and more efficiently.
Quote: (Hyperlight b May 22 2011, 03:32 AM)

Green reliability is utter garbage, my friend bought 12 WD Greens a year or 2 ago and out of the lot 4 are dead........

Their first batches did suck. Many died young.

One question, for my own research - what orientation were the drives positioned in?

This message was modified by the poster at 05 22, 2011 01:11 PM

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
death_hawk™ May 22, 2011 01:11 PM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

1) Since we're dealing with small time statistics, I had 7/12 total drives with 3 shelfed (so actually 7/9) suffer some sort of failure.
They were 7200RPM Samsung F1. Not that either of our samples are large enough, but still.... Oh and mine were across 6 months and different batches. Hanes had issues with his too.

2) It's actually less. During operation, they actually save 0W. It's only during idle that they save anything and it's only like 3W.
I laughed when I did the math on this and GP drives were actually more than Blacks. Long story short, with the price difference you had to run GP drives for something like 30 years at idle to save anything.
It's now not about power savings, but rather actual cost of the drive.

3)

Quote: (Hyperlight @ May 22 2011, 03:32 AM)

bring in the 2Us with 15K RPM deltas.

You're not a man until this is true.

4) If you're cheaping out and building an array on Green drives, I don't think performance is the first thing that comes to mind. The RAID I was planning for a fleet of WD20EADS (which I may still be planning on) has relatively few writes and a TON of reads.
4a) WDIDLE3
4b) I haven't seen a 5400RPM drive take THAT long to do it's thing that it gets kicked from the array.
If you're gonna get RE GP, just get RE Blacks.
4c) How is getting 8x 2TB Blacks more cost effective? If I'm running RAID1, there's probably a reason for it. I can't compare running let's say 8x GP drives in RAID1 to 8x Blacks in RAID6.
[5]) Quit pushing heavy IO to them? I do linear read/writes and they perform fine. In fact... I was copying one of my notebooks to my EARS via eSATA and I hit 80MB/s writes. I was quite impressed.

This post is huge already, so I'm quitting here and responding to others in a 2nd post.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
64Bit_Snip3r May 22, 2011 01:33 PM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

I'm a professional video editor, WD Greens make an excellent "Throw away" drive where I put finalized projects on the drives and store them away in a safe place.

The only time the drive gets put in my dock is when I need to offload a project to it or recall files from the drive.

This message was modified by the poster at 05 22, 2011 01:37 PM

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Kramy May 22, 2011 01:37 PM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

Quote: (mattrickulater @ May 22 2011, 05:06 AM)

As for software RAID, I think it's a useless feature. I think it's there as something that motherboard manufacturers can sell to the masses who think their data is protected by a magical aura and that if they run RAID then world peace is around the corner (now who's ranting?).

Linux software RAID (dmraid/mdraid) is very robust, and has no trouble with Green drives.

ZFS is quite possibly the most advanced publicly available RAID solution - and it's Software RAID.

Quote: (mattrickulater @ May 22 2011, 05:06 AM)

- 9.71%: WD Caviar Black WD2001FASS
- 6.87% Hitachi Deskstar 7K2000
- 4.83%: WD Caviar Green WD20EARS
- 4.35% Seagate Barracuda LP
- 4.17%: Samsung EcoGreen F3
- 2.90%: WD Caviar Green WD20EADS

Note - these are eStore RMAs rather than Manufacturer returns.

Most 3Stores have 30 day warranties. Not all RMAs are due to failure. Some are due to wanting a different product.

The WD2001FASS had a firmware glitch ("Stutter Bug") which caused it to sometimes get confused for a few seconds, resulting in a stutter. This accounts for the high number of early eStore returns.

These numbers don't tell us how many HDDs or SSDs failed within 1-2 years.

I can tell you that so far SSD reliability is looking quite bad compared to HDDs - but I should wait until the end of their warranty periods before proclaiming anything.

Quote: (mattrickulater @ May 22 2011, 05:06 AM)

One person will have them cooking away in an old case with no fans - and another will have them in proper bays with 120mm fans directly on them. I never cook my drives, so failure rates due to stupid installers/users can't be determined. (Like for instance all my 20+ Seagate .12's that have never failed me cause they have fans on them)

For years I cooked all my drives. I've suffered an unusually high number of Seagate failures. (70-80% of roughly a dozen - for 7200.10, I had more failures than drives purchased)

However, I've never had a WD drive fail. WD Blacks and Raptors seem more capable of dealing with higher temperatures. Some reports even suggest that the drives like being warmer. (35-50C)

Quote: (mattrickulater @ May 22 2011, 05:06 AM)

sorry I lied, I did have 1 of 2 WD 36GB Raptors go after like 6 years......

An acceptable lifespan. I used my 74GB Raptor 16/7 for six or seven years before it started making crazy noises. It's still going fine, though.

Within-warranty failures are the only ones I count. I do use my drives quite hard.

Quote: (mattrickulater @ May 22 2011, 05:06 AM)

3. If you can't differentiate the noise level between a Black and a Green it doesn't mean your case is well insulated. It means you have other components drowning them out and/or your noise tolerance is high (you have Deltas for crying out loud!).

My WD Black 6401AALS is actually quieter than my WD Green drives. But apparently I have a super quiet revision. (the most quiet WD Blacks ever)

Quote: (mattrickulater @ May 22 2011, 05:06 AM)

1 was DOA but no failures aside from that.

I don't count DOA drives. Quite often they're caused by shipping damage.

Speaking of shipping damage, my two dying Greens were surprise specials off the **** (shipped via UPS) Coincidence?

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
death_hawk™ May 22, 2011 01:41 PM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

Multiquote time!

Quote: (death_hawk™ @ May 22 2011, 01:11 PM)

People like to buy "green" products, makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

DING DING DING DING!
Here's the real reason. When Green drives first came out and everyone was like "OOOHHH POWER SAVINGS!" I then read the specs sheet and laughed.
1-3W savings when the drive is idle.
And $50+ more in terms of cost compared to a non GP drive.
It would literally take 19 years at idle saving 3W at $0.10/kWh to make up the cost difference.
Obviously GP drives are cheaper now so that's no longer valid, but at launch it was.

Quote: (death_hawk™ @ May 22 2011, 01:11 PM)

I'll admit, you still have to buy two drives where one would suffice, but that should be standard practice.

That's why I liked TLERable drives. For the cost difference you could literally have 1:1 cold spares instead of just a few.
When WD20EADS was still TLERable, I was planning on deploying 70 of them with 30 cold spares, compared to RE drives where I'd have like 5 cold spares.

Quote: (death_hawk™ @ May 22 2011, 01:11 PM)

If you have data you can't afford to use

That damn data nowadays is getting expensive to use.
He does have a point. If it's that criticial, it should be located in 3 geographically unique places on at least 2 different types of media.

Quote: (death_hawk™ @ May 22 2011, 01:11 PM)

why in the world would you skimp on the drives? That makes no sense to me.

Depends on what "skimp on drives" means.
Not everyone that runs RAID is enterprisey. The average jerk is now realizing the awesome power of RAID. The difference is that they usually don't have a 6 figure budget to work with.
Hell... when I was building my file server, I was waiting for sales of $FIVE dollars because I would save $150 at the end.

Assuming that green drives performed acceptably enough for use, why would you NOT consider them? Why pay for performance drives when green drives would do?

Quote: (death_hawk™ @ May 22 2011, 01:11 PM)

As for software RAID, I think it's a useless feature.

It really depends on your needs. I run a few software RAID1 and they perform better than hardware RAID.
Parity gets pwned by hardware though.
You are correct about the average idiot thinking that there's a magical aura that's 100% infalliable protecting their crap.

Quote: (death_hawk™ @ May 22 2011, 01:11 PM)

One person will have them cooking away in an old case with no fans

Google concluded that heat has no relation to drive death.
I can agree albiet with a MUCH smaller sample size. I still have (had) a bunch of 200GB IDE drives sitting in uncooled plastic enclosures running at 65C 24/7 with "large water" writes for 5 years.
I've had drives that were in front of Deltas that failed.
Then again... that could just be the Delta blowing the platter out of the drive.

Quote: (death_hawk™ @ May 22 2011, 01:11 PM)

2. Yes, the power difference is quite small. It should only be a consideration if you're employing a lot of them.

See... I wouldn't even give them that.
If you're deploying let's say 10000 drives, they probably won't be sitting idle.
The only way the power savings would matter is spread over a large "average" user base where there's more downtime in terms of writes.

Quote: (death_hawk™ @ May 22 2011, 01:11 PM)

If you pay half the price of a 7200RPM model, what do you expect?

I sure wasn't expecting 80MB/s writes....

Quote: (death_hawk™ @ May 22 2011, 01:11 PM)

Turns out when his company built the server, in order to stay under the max amps allowed for what they pay a month they decided to use the WD Green's.

WTF? Unless they deployed 200 drives in a rack that sat idle, that doesn't make a lick of sense.

Quote: (death_hawk™ @ May 22 2011, 01:11 PM)

Ok, so are grandma and grandpa going to also invest time and effort in a proper backup solution??

That's their own fault. If you (or grandma/grandpa) aren't gonna backup their stuff, it's their problem.

Quote: (death_hawk™ @ May 22 2011, 01:11 PM)

I personally don't backup all my data, I find it exceedingly cost prohibitive. Sure I backup irreplaceable stuff offsite and sync it via VPNs.

I don't either. I'm not an enterprise with a 6 figure budget.
I only have a 5 figure budget and most of it is allocated to new arrays.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
ASUSpro May 22, 2011 01:48 PM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

Are the WD green really that bad? Their review is filled with positives?

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
xda_master May 22, 2011 02:07 PM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

Hate to break it to you further but the amount of watts you save per drive on a green drive vs other drives is not even in the double digits, but in the single digits.

Green drives do have their use though. I came out of the warehouse sale with a WD Green 2TB (they only had Green 2TBs or Seagate LPs, I took a green because the LPs are apparently louder and had half the cache), it's being used for data storage and nothing significantly drive-intensive - for which I would definitely use a black drive.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
PhlyingFish May 22, 2011 02:13 PM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

They make a good cheap drive to stash porn on.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
Hyperlight May 22, 2011 02:22 PM Reply | Bookmark
Like | Top | Bottom

^^ I guess that's the only good use for a green. A disposable data drive to move stuff around.

Tip Posting | My Postings () | My Reviews () | View Source
PREV   |   NEXT   1 2 3  


Call Queue
Now Serving
Closed
Avg. Response Time
Closed
Request Call Back
(Web Orders Only)

All Time Experts
1. Mr. Friendly™ (51387)
2. The Wizard (39824)
3. death_hawk™ (35144)
4. Not An Expert (26343)
5. Lance W (25246)
 
Featured Brands:
Shop by brands
Your Order Company Info Memberships Services Hotlinks
Customer Care
Order Status
About NCIX
Contact Us
Careers
Terms & Conditions
Branding & Logos
Privacy Policy
NCIX Rewards
Premier Partner Reseller
Affiliate Program
NCIX Gift Cards
Online Price Match
NCIX Newsletters
Facebook
YouTube
Twitter
Forums
International Sites: United States Canada
Copyright© 2015 - NCIXUS.com/NCIXUS Technology Inc. All rights reserved.